At this point Obama isn’t showing me very much good.

BTW, welcome to my Mind, hope you come back often…

http://jpsmind.wordpress.com/2008/04/27/pornography-and-the-christian-man/

You can save far more by driving a few miles out of your way to buy a single gallon of milk than you can by driving a few miles out of your way to save a few cents a gallon on gas when filling your whole tank.

The price of a gallon of milk has tripled in the same period as the price of gas has tripled.

I think that was all.

So the reason they’re making record profits isn’t that they’re profiteering, it’s that we’re using more oil than ever before. It isn’t the oil companies that we need to blame for that, it’s ourselves. In the 1980’s and early 1990’s it wasn’t very common that people drove trucks and SUVs, most people drove cars and station wagons until the late 80’s when it started to become more minivans and then transitioned to trucks and SUVs when consumers found them to be emasculating and manufacturers responded by giving us the SUV.

Another interesting fact that the news never brings up is that the oil companies already pay substantially more in taxes than they’ve ever made in profits. in the past 25 years they’ve made about $630 billion in profits (when adjusted for inflation to 2004 dollars) and in that same time period they have paid approximately $2.2 TRILLION in taxes. And what does the government spend their money on? Invading countries with oil, and with the profits THEY make from oil, is it any wonder?

Another interesting fact, the oil industry is not the most profitable, not in terms of total profit, in terms of profit per employee, in terms of profit as a percentage of total revenue. Banking is almost always the most profitable industry in the country but the media aren’t giving screen/headline time to increasing bank fees. The second most profitable industry is pharmaceuticals which rank just behind banking. Where banking’s profits are usually around 25% or so, pharmaceutical profits are usually around 22%. Yes, people do complain about drug prices, but not nearly as much as they do about gas prices.

Why do people complain about gas prices? Probably because there’s a great big sign with a number right out in front of every gas station they drive by.

Do you know how many people will drive a few miles out of their way to save a couple cents per gallon of gas? Do you realize that other consumables often vary in price by far more than does a gallon of gas, sometimes even more than a dollar?

Nobody shops around for a gallon of milk, they just go to whatever store is close and pay whatever price they charge, but you can save far more by driving out of your way and price shopping a single gallon of milk than you’ll save by driving a few miles out of the way to save a couple cents a gallon for gas.

Did you notice that the price for a gallon of milk has nearly tripled in the same period of time that the price of a gallon of milk has tripled? What about a loaf of bread? It’s the same story and yet people don’t pay any attention to those prices, or if they do it’s just to note how much they’ve risen rather than to think about driving a few extra miles and getting it cheaper somewhere else.

Our outrage at gas prices and oil company profits, when looked at rationally and in a manner consistent to how we look at everything else in our lives, is just insanity. I’m starting to think that the politicians and media making a pariah out of the oil companies is a ruse designed to keep our attention away from the reality right in front of our eyes.

Blind faith is not a requirement, nor is it a preference.

As for the rest of your comment. One would simply need to speak the truth in love, and let the friend do that which he may.

Is faith then, a work of man? Dependent upon man’s efforts in study and prayer ect. ect.?

You said,
“My bible does not tell me about who to blame, or why, concerning what they do or don’t do - it tells me about what I am to do, or not do. How I am to act or react. How God’s love and grace is evidenced through me and my actions. It is a personal, internal manifestation of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.”

This is a good statement and with it I may be able to more clearly show what I mean, as I feel I have not explained myself clearly as of yet.

I am not asking about one to blame or why. I am asking…

Suppose you knew something about someone. And they really needed your help but they did not know it. But you did. And suppose you could not persuade them that they need your help.
Do you in love do what you must, knowing they may well hate you for it, if it saves them from destroying themselves?

Like what if one has a friend who thought his latest offer was a golden and much coveted oppurtunity. But the one knew a secret and from that knew it was going to turn out bad if he could not get his friend to reconsider his decision. And when he tried, his friend would not listen, because he could ’see’ no danger. If the friend who could tell his buddy was making a mistake could somehow, “throw a wrench in the gears” so to speak, should he do so even though he knows his friend would not understand and may not forgive him. Especially if the ‘gears’ are messed up before the ‘victim’ could see why his friend did what he did. As in perhaps, waiting till the guy knew may be too late.

Wouldn’t true love sacrifice the friendship to save the friend?

Sincerely.

Not really sure how you can derive that question from what I stated. God created man, mankind sinned and thus his progeny is no longer that perfect creation. Nothing in what I just stated, or stated earlier has any implication on whether or not God has, or has not, control over anything.

did you make a decision to believe the bible or is it something out of your control, so to speak? Perhaps the ability comes from the faith you spoke of.
My faith is well reasoned, born of countless hours of doubt, disbelief, study, questioning, and prayer.

Do you ever worry about being wrong?

Not really. What do I have to loose if I am wrong in my faith? A lifetime of love, support, joy, and peace? I guess I could live with that.

How can anyone know for sure what is correct? There are so many choices in life, so many different “holy books” that give different ways to heaven and many that say they are the only way.
faith and reason.

To tell the truth, I have found that when they are prodded somewhat, most can’t even tell me what they think heaven is or how they know it is real outside of the literature they read.
So? I know only 1 thing for sure beyond the here and now: there are two possible eternities; One eternity in the presence of the One True Almighty God, and one eternity separated from Him. To me an eternity separated from Him would be everlasting torment.

Perhaps it is a personal situation I am in, but I feel that story is probably not constructive to the conversation. But would it be wrong for say…

Me or anyone to cause another person suffering if I/they know/knew it is for the good of the other, even if it is unpleasant for the other person?
I cannot respond to this as have no idea what type of suffering one could cause another for their own good.

So, if the one who suffered learned from the suffering, does it acquit the one who caused her/him harm? And if the situation’s outcome is the opposite and the action only harms the person someone was actually trying to help, does that make the offense more despicable?
Acquit them from what exactly?

I think we have a diametric paradigm in this discussion. Scripture, faith, and His grace in this situation deals with one’s own actions and reactions, not someone else’s actions. My bible does not tell me about who to blame, or why, concerning what they do or don’t do - it tells me about what I am to do, or not do. How I am to act or react. How God’s love and grace is evidenced through me and my actions. It is a personal, internal manifestation of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Religion teaches otherwise. It teaches how to control and direct the actions of others, how to judge and condemn another’s actions and reactions. I personally have no time, or patience for such nonsense. God is concerned with me, as far as I am concerned, I am to focus on what He wants from me in my life for His purposes.

You said,
“God created man perfectly suited to commune with Him. Man sinned and mankind fell from grace, our existence beyond that is a natural extension of that fall. God does not cast people into hell either. Eternal separation from Him is a result of our sin nature, we are dead to him from our birth, thus an eternity separate from Him is our birthright.”

I hope I am not reading what you said here correctly. Is it that God has had no control over who has been born since the fall of mankind?

Revjp said,
“Ignorance is not an issue as God has given us His Word and has provided salvation for us through the life, death, and resurrection of His Son. Eternity with Him is not guess work, and the bible which one may choose to believe or not tells us all we need to know in that regard.”

I admire your ability to believe what a book says. I am sure it is comforting to you. I know this is a personal question, but, if I may ask you, did you make a decision to believe the bible or is it something out of your control, so to speak? Perhaps the ability comes from the faith you spoke of. Do you ever worry about being wrong? How can anyone know for sure what is correct? There are so many choices in life, so many different “holy books” that give different ways to heaven and many that say they are the only way.

To tell the truth, I have found that when they are prodded somewhat, most can’t even tell me what they think heaven is or
how they know it is real outside of the literature they read.

Revjp said,
“Now then, for your questions about believer # and believer *:

What is it that makes you think of intentional cause when speaking of causing suffering?”

Perhaps it is a personal situation I am in, but I feel that story is probably not constructive to the conversation. But would it be wrong for say…

Me or anyone to cause another person suffering if I/they know/knew it is for the good of the other, even if it is unpleasant for the other person?

Revjp said,
“One can cause pain, or suffering unintentionally and that is the real issue. If something someone does, intentionally or not, causes me to suffer, that is a tool for me to use to ‘prune’ my own deadwood, to manifest the example of Christ in my own life. Not by what they did or didn’t do to me, but by the way I deal with it, learn from it, grow from it - or not.”

So, if the one who suffered learned from the suffering, does it acquit the one who caused her/him harm? And if the situation’s outcome is the opposite and the action only harms the person someone was actually trying to help, does that make the offense more despicable?

Thank you for your patience thus far. This is of real interest to me.

Jonah and the Pharaoh, and one believer causing intentional suffering on another….

Firstly let us address the facts; Has God caused some suffering in the past? Absolutely.

No one, certainly not I, has suggested that God has not done so. However, when He has done so He has done so for specifically stated reasons that facilitate His good purposes.

The question hanging in the air is where you stated: “O.K. So then, is it your position that God does not will anyone to suffer?’

I simply pointed out that I did not state that as my position and I drew a distinction between God allowing suffering and God willing suffering.

You further stated:
“It sounds like God does will for people to suffer. If He did not, then why does He place them here, trapped in ignorance, knowing they have no way out but death, then cast them into hell if they do not please Him, when most don’t even know what He wants from them?”
Let us look at the facts. God did not ‘place them here, trapped in ignorance’. God created man perfectly suited to commune with Him. Man sinned and mankind fell from grace, our existence beyond that is a natural extension of that fall. God does not cast people into hell either. Eternal separation from Him is a result of our sin nature, we are dead to him from our birth, thus an eternity separate from Him is our birthright.

Ignorance is not an issue as God has given us His Word and has provided salvation for us through the life, death, and resurrection of His Son. Eternity with Him is not guess work, and the bible which one may choose to believe or not tells us all we need to know in that regard.

Additionally; pleasing Him isn’t an issue at all. Salvation is not a aspect of pleasing Him, or doing good, or any other such idea. Salvation is a gift of grace, through faith.

Now then, for your questions about believer # and believer *:

What is it that makes you think of intentional cause when speaking of causing suffering? One can cause pain, or suffering unintentionally and that is the real issue. If something someone does, intentionally or not, causes me to suffer, that is a tool for me to use to ‘prune’ my own deadwood, to manifest the example of Christ in my own life. Not by what they did or didn’t do to me, but by the way I deal with it, learn from it, grow from it - or not.

When you speak of “pruning”, and when you said God uses difficult people to make one a better person or whatever. (I know that is not your exact words, but it is close enough to get the point across.) To cut away the “deadwood”, as you call it.

The if that is the case, and please help me with this as I am trying to understand it in sincerity. If one believer, we will call them believer # saw another believer(*) was not livng up to what # thought was a biblical standard, or even if # saw a little “deadwood” in the life of *, would it be the right thing for # to cause * to suffer to lose the deadwood and grow in the relationship with God that # thinks * should have, or that # thinks any who claim to believe in God should have? Simply put this is a hard question to ask with the accuracy in understanding that I wish for it to be received in.

So, let me simplify it. And this is all I really wish to know about this conversation….

Does one believer have the scriptural right to cause another to suffer and help them to suffer because they think the other person needs it for their own good? Like an extremely obese person for instance.(If we can put it in worldly terms)

Would it be acceptable for a skinny person to lock fatty up for a few months, feeding them sparsely, so they would lose weight and be more healthy?

Is there any thing in the bible that allows one person to cause another to suffer to fit their own personal idea of what the bible says would make them a better person?

Thanks

You said,
“You stated that God wills people to suffer and I questioned that assertion. It would be incumbent upon you to demonstrate scripturally that such is the case.”

Actually all I did was ask you three questions. I did not state anything as fact, or even theory. I am no bible scholar that is for sure, so I am probably not the person to ask for a scriptural reference. But i will give it a shot….

Let’s take Jonah. If i remember the story correctly, he ran from what God wanted him to do. Even though that is the case, it would seem that God willed him to suffer in the whale’s belly, as long as God got what He wanted out of it.

Then, there is Pharaoh and the rest of Egypt. From reading the story, it looks like God said He would harden Pharaoh’s heart, which seemed to have happened and Pharoah suffered for it by losing his wealth, having his nation destroyed, and lastly losing the life of his first born son. It would be hard to explain, if one tried to, how God did not will for Pharaoh and the rest of Egypt to suffer when God said He would cause those things to show His power throughout the earth.

And there is, if memory serves me correctly something else about no punishment seems good, but God chastises the son He loves or something like that. Are you familar with that verse of scripture?

It sounds like God does will for people to suffer. If He did not, then why does He place them here, trapped in ignorance, knowing they have no way out but death, then cast them into hell if they do not please Him, when most don’t even know what He wants from them?

God also uses suffering to manifest the life of Christ in us. For that to happen, we must learn to depend on Him for both our work and our words. If circumstances did not press in upon us, we would probably go our own way. But we are to be like Jesus, who relied on His Father no matter how easy or hard life became. As Christ’s ambassadors, we are to be living examples of His character. This may mean forgiving our enemies, bearing our burdens with patience, or finding joy in the midst of sorrow, just as He did. Our witness will not be a perfect one, but we should display a growing “family resemblance.”

Life is full of trouble. But in the hands of a loving God, our suffering is being used for His eternal purposes

Actually, I didn’t state any position. You stated that God wills people to suffer and I questioned that assertion. It would be incumbent upon you to demonstrate scripturally that such is the case.

And if so, then would one believer helping, or lending a hand in causing another to suffer for their own groweth be contrary to God’s will, in your opinion?

Dave,
Nice picture you’ve painted. Have you seen this new world you have spoken of? Is it anything like Huxley’s new world? What I am asking is, do you have “any” reason, other than what you think you read in the bible, to believe what you said?

You do realize that book has a talking snake and donkey in it, right? Have you ever met either one of those?

To me I am just as guilty before GOD if I >>> THINK IT ( such as a swear word ) even if I do not SAY IT. This would apply for SUBSTITUTE
WORDS. An example would be saying DARN instead of DAM, or DOG GONE IT instead of “GOD d— IT”. So I agree with previous post sating the same principle. If you are thinking the hard swear word but only speaking the soft substitute, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE ???

To me the “more worser” thing to do is THE DOING OF EVIL ACTS versus merely thought and speech. However if a Christians faith and witness is looked down on BECAUSE OF THE STREAM OF FILTH SPILLING FROM THEIR PIE HOLE, then I would suggest that a person THROTTLE THEIR THOUGHT AND WORDS for the sake of a LOST PERSON BEING SAVED FROM ETERNAL SEPARATION IN HELL !!!!!!!

Please say so if you disagree.

( To me SELFISHNESS ID THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL. )

>>>>>>><<<<<<>> JESUS.

JESUS bless you,

dave :’>

GOD knows that if we were to gain the answers to SOME of our prayers that the MOTIVES for why we prayed for such things would be lost in our rush to ENJOY THE BOOTY.

Said another way, “Matt 6:31-34 (RSV) “So do not start worrying: ‘Where will my food come from? or my drink? or my clothes?’ (These are the things the heathen are always concerned about.) Your Father in heaven knows that you need all these things. Instead, be concerned above everything else with his Kingdom and with what he requires, and he will provide you with all these other things. So do not worry about tomorrow; it will have enough worries of its own. There is no need to add to the troubles each day brings.”

Phil 3:19-20 (NAS) …whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things. For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Mark 4:19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

dave :’>

THANKS !

davegh :’>

Christians are still humans in a sinful world who are not isloated or insulated whilst living in it.

For the saved ( those redeemed by the BLOOD OF JESUS ) there will be
a NEW HEAVENS AND A NEW EARTH which is pure and blessed by GOD for our future living. There will be none of the negatives that we experience in this current cursed world.

At last there will be complete PEACE , JOY, AND REST.

FOREVER

JESUS Bless you,

dave :’>

Secondly, your questions deny the idea that the good purposes of God are not included in the idea of a believer alleviating that suffering, but that in fact His purposes are only included in the idea of suffering.

1. If it is true that God takes pleasure in and wills his suffering children to be so, then wouldn’t it be fighting God’s will for one believer to try and alleviate the suffering of another?

2. If God wills they should suffer and be the better for it, then is it the right thing to help them suffer, so they can be in his will and grow?

3. Why not to both questions?